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So, I was listening to a recent episode of Marc Maron’s WTF podcast–which is a very good podcast if you are into podcasts–in which he interviewed Joe Rogan about whatever it is that Marc Maron is always interviewing people about. Sad boners? I feel like that show, which I have already pointed out is great, is mostly about who has the saddest boner. ANYWAY: at one point in the conversation, Marc brought up Joe Rogan’s time hosting Fear Factor, and went into some kind of Marxist tirade against that show, reality television in general, and most fantastically, Joe Rogan’s responsibility for the ruination of Western Civilization. Oh brother. Now look, I’m no Joe Rogan apologist. The flame war he got into (and lost) on MySpace with a 20-year-old boy is still one of the funniest things the Internet has ever seen. Also Fear Factor was a particularly awful show. TALK ABOUT (EATING) SAD BONERS! But, Marc Maron’s argument that Joe Rogan is somehow responsible for, well, anything, seems patently ridiculous. He was the hired host of a reality show! Everyone has to eat. How else was he supposed to put Muscle Milk and flax seed smoothies on his family? He didn’t invent the show, or pay for it, or put it on his network. He just stood in front of the camera and said “Put this in your mouth.” Give the guy a break! (I also find it hard to believe, although I haven’t finished the episode, so maybe Marc Maron addresses this, but I find it hard to believe that if given the opportunity, especially back when Fear Factor was actually on, that Marc Maron would not take that opportunity. So what are we even talking about here?)
But there was actually a more interesting thing that struck me in listening to this argument about who is to blame for reality television and what the overwhelming reality TV explosion has done to popular culture and the general argument that it is dumbing the culture down and that it is overall a “bad” thing that got me thinking: well, no. I’m not the biggest fan of reality TV, a lot of it is very stupid and very garbage, but I don’t know how problematic that is, and the more I think about it, the more the categorization of reality TV as “bad,” and the idealization of a pre-reality TV culture as “better” just seems false. Marc Maron owes Joe Rogan an apology! (Unless he apologized to him in the part of the episode I have not finished listening to yet! What do I look like, an actual journalist who does his research?!) That being said, I think we (as in myself and the people who read this website) have probably found ourselves thinking along the same lines as Marc Maron on this subject in the past, so, if anything, we owe reality TV an apology.
First of all, some reality TV is abjectly miserable (I Didn’t Know I Was Pregnant), and some of it is just dumb (The Real Housewives of New Jersey), and some of it is incredibly entertaining but morally suspect (Hoarders), and some of it is pretty decent (Top Chef). There are all kinds now! So it’s just not possible to make a broad, all-encompassing claim about it. It’s just a structure, and it’s hard to get mad at a structure. A good way to think about this problem is in the evolution of one of the first reality shows: The Real World*. The first couple of seasons were genuinely interesting, and doing something new, and exploring the human drama in a new way. And the last couple of seasons are body shots on the first night in a Senor Frogs. Is one of them more demonstrative of reality TV than the other, or are they both reality TV? I say no!
THERE WILL BE A TEST ON THIS LATER. Sorry, I’m not trying to take everyone to Boring And Simplistic Thoughts About TV School. But it does seem like it’s something worth putting a little thought into, considering how pervasive it is, and how much time we all spend with it. Or not. I don’t know. TGIM!
More important than the argument defending reality television, though, is the argument ATTACKING the past. You guys, FUCK THE PAST! Don’t be fooled by that silver-tongued trickster! That motherfucker was just as lazy and crude and dumb as the present is. Not to mention racist as hellllllll. The argument that Marc Maron made (remember that part?) about how reality TV forced out scripted television and killed a lot of TV writing jobs is kind of true, but it doesn’t tautologically prove that those scripted TV shows were any good. Because they weren’t! Do you know how much bad television there has been in the history of television PRIOR to reality shows? Most. Most of it. Absolute garbage. MOREOVER, I like to think (because that is how convincing logical arguments are constructed, by how much you like to think stuff) that our scripted television is actually better NOW and probably BECAUSE of reality TV. Those who reject that omnipresent new form of “mindless” entertainment are looking for something more engaging, and shows like The Wire, and 30 Rock, and Justified are there to provide just that. Television is awesome right now, actually! In your face, Family Matters!
So enough about reality TV. It is certainly not going anywhere. And a lot of people like it! Good for them! We should all be so lucky as to find something in this world that makes us momentarily forget about the inexorable approach of our own death even if it is just for an hour and it involves a lot of screaming. Besides, it wasn’t ever any better. This guy knows what I’m talking about:
CLASS DISMISSED. (Sorry.)
*I recognize there is already a fatal flaw in my argument right here, insofar as someone could point out that looking at the evolution of The Real World expresses exactly what I am supposedly countering: that reality TV is moving in one inexorable movement away from human stories and towards stupidity, alcohol abuse, sordid sexual exploitation, and base-level “entertainment.” But I still think it is a) impossible to claim that reality TV is any one thing, and b) my second point about the ways in which the “golden era” of the past is deceptive may be the stronger of the two points.
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I think Rogan gets the better end of this argument. You should listen to the rest of the podcast. Then listen to the one with Conan, because it’s great.
I dunno. Rogan refuses to take responsibility or admit to a single fault during the entire podcast. So it’s hard for me to see him come out on top in any of the “arguments”. I think he needs a few more hours of enlightenment in that isolation chamber because he comes across as a delusional nightmare creature.
I’m not saying that Rogan comes across well in general, but on this particular topic it seemed that Maron was projecting his own professional insecurities onto Rogan, as he is wont to do. To be fair to Maron, he did acknowledge the possibility of that projection at the outset of the conversation.
Rogan’s position on taking the Fear Factor job struck me as entirely reasonable, regardless of his overall doucheyness during the interview.
Even if Reality TV is just us wanting to see people fail this is not a new thing, people did not go watch the gladiators or bullfighters to see the guys succeed, they wanted to see people mauled to death by wild animals.
I think watching Snooki drunkenly waddle is an improvement, just barely
Look, the argument is that reality TV is giving people a false view of reality, but if you’re the kind of person who thinks that the clearly advertised ENTERTAINMENT coming out of your ENTERTAINMENT box is real life, well, let’s just say you’re not so much cul-tured as a cul-de-sac (I am so fucking proud of that one I’m going to start in the corner of my room and glow until I realise that if the highlight of my day is making a forced pun in the comments section of a minor media website I am just as bad as the people I am mocking)
My problem is with the pretense of some reality TV (like Flavor of Barf up there) as entertainment, specifically that I’m supposed to view the indulgence of narcissistic garbage people’s worst instincts as entertainment. It’s terribly insulting to me.
Related: Is it weird that I am just SO EXCITED to listen to Conan on WTF tonight while walking my dog?
I’m halfway through it so far and it’s really good! And it’s only the first part of a two-parter!
Capu, have you read David Foster Wallace’s essay on television? It fits with what you’re saying (if less eloquent than your comment)
For all those interested, it’s an interesting take. http://bit.ly/h3ICXJ (careful, link is to a PDF).
I just want to point out that this gave me all the LOLz:
“He was the hired host of a reality show! Everyone has to eat. How else was he supposed to put Muscle Milk and flax seed smoothies on his family?”
I think I laughed for a good minute. This guy knows…
Can’t stop starting at the poster in the background. I want to hang it on my wall next to the all Christian Slater bulletin board I made in 7th grade…
#notkidding #grownwoman
Oh yeah, that would have totally been next to my Titanic and Blink 182 posters.
DON’T JUDGE 12 YEAR OLD ME, YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!
Don’t you think 12 is a bit old for Blink 182?
I make this statement with a fullness of pride that knows no boundaries: Joe Million is the only television show that has ever existed that I have seen every single episode of and actually scheduled my personal life around so that I could watch it live.
Did he shorten his name when he arrived at Ellis Island?
Very well put, Gabe. There’s a reason it’s called the ‘idiot box’ or the ‘boob tube.’ But sometimes idiots and boobs are OK, right? I think you get my point.
sometimes boobs are okay
counterpoint: all the time boobs are okay, or better than okay
Exhibits A and B: (more like exhibits D and D. Zing!)
Guys, I don’t know why my jpgs are all so huge today. I’m so very very sorry.
Christina Hendricks’ bosom means never having to say you’re sorry
Your .jpgs aren’t the only things that are huge.
That picture is making MY jpegs huge.
I tweeted this before, but a gif this good (a gif from God?) deserves a much prolific platform.
Thank you, MTV’s Undressed.
Jawn, I think you know how I voted for this.
I should have been blessed with at least 1/6th of that……
OK…so I generally hate reality shows, but I recognize two things about them that curb my general loathing.
1. As Gabe pointed out, there’s more than one kind. Some are good, some are bad. Hoarders has little to do with Jersey Shore other than the fact that they’re not scripted in any traditional sense.
2. I think they make scripted TV better. The TV I grew up with was garbage. Even the good shows look fairly junky compared to today’s best stuff (Mad Men, HBO stuff, etc.). I think that because the networks get away cheaply making these shows which still bring in tons of sweet ad money, they tend to view their scripted programming more as prestige programming and are willing to take more chances on novel concepts.
Gabe explaining reality shows to me.
It’s about as natural as watching Mr. Rogers flawlessly execute a pop-n-lock.
well said, gabe. in similar news, i don’t understand what all the backlash against snooki making $32K to speak at rutgers is. this is our culture. we feed it. also, snooki is a business. so what’s the outrage for?
Plus it’s not like a college student has never seen a drunk girl with their boobs half out
BYU excluded, of course.
I can understand why people might find it a bit galling that a public university would pay that much money for someone to come speak when that someone has absolutely nothing worthwhile to say. Nothing. I mean, I’m pretty sure everyone who heard her speak actually got stupider because of it.
Is it OK to refer to Snooki as a nappy-headed ho?
It’s not that snooki (this is not a name) was paid $32k to speak a Rutgers, I think it’s that this garbage monster was paid more than a celebrated author for doing absolutely nothing.
i dunno. i know that as consumers, we drive the culture. we create the demand. we should be looking at ourselves if we have a problem with it.
What? Colleges should listen to whatever dumbass shit that a large portion of the population likes? There goes the entire curriculum…
ALSO, gene. i think the only thing that we can get out of the fact that snooki is being paid more than said celebrated author is that said celebrated author needs a better business manager.
I can agree with this. It does say a lot about ourselves as consumers. I guess I am more upset with us than with Rutgers? GET IT TOGETHER, US.
haha. that’s a whole different conversation entirely.
The Real World debuted in 1992. You know what else debuted in 1992? Mad About You and The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. You know what else, it was the year they switch Aunt Viv’s on The Fresh Prince of Bel Air and Carol on Growing Pains got anorexia.
As far as I’m concerned that whole year sucks.
Oh, also from Wikipedia: Fall – NBC cancels all their Saturday morning cartoons in favor of Saved By The Bell and a weekend version of Today.
God, 1992 was the Katherine Heigl of years for TV
Speaking of Saturday morning cartoons, I think that year was also the same time the cartoon The Cowboys of Moo Mesa debuted. It was about cowboys who were REAL COWS and they rode horses and it was the end of Saturday morning cartoons for me.
And all for the better! Because TV was so awful, I turned it off and started listening to alternative rock and discovered Nirvana. Everything happens for a reason.
Hey whoa whoa whoa Mad About You was BETTER THAN AVERAGE.
Can’t I just enjoy Paul Reiser’s confused face without your JUDGMENT, Frank?
I just want them to bring back The Mole
On a side note, Gabe, Justified recaps would not be amiss on Videogum. I, for one, would read the hell out of them.
I think Liedman should do that.
This is a good post and I’mma let you finish (topical!) but sometimes we post personal news in the last post of the day and here is mine: I got accepted to a PhD program in English. This is me:
Back to reality TV: this is a well-reasoned, interesting, intelligent argument. What is it doing on the internet?
Congrats (future Dr.) Friday!
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Way to go.
Fuck. My comment seems so much more sarcastic without a .gif. But I really meant it!
I’ll take my “way to go” with a big side of “thank you”!
Krys, your VG pic is my FB pic, so seeing this at 4 in the morning my first thought was, I didn’t write that.
Yea Baby Friday! This is for you:
How did you know that Shawn and Gus would be THE BEST ONES?! (Spoiler: it’s because they’re always the best ones.)
That’s fantastic news! Congratulations!
Thank you everyone! This is the result of a loooong journey, and I kind of can’t believe it’s true. It’s like magic or something. I am so, so happy!
DR. BABY MD!!!
Congratulations!
Congrats! However, I am sorry that apparently a consequence of getting into a PhD program is that you got a terrible haircut, glasses, and now look a ton like Dwight from The Office. That wouldn’t be worth it for me.
This is a weird thing to say, but thank you for saying nice things about TV. I work in the industry and I agree, there’s some really great programming out there lately – cable is really having a renaissance.
By the way, if you are interested in the history of reality TV, there’s a great movie premiering on HBO this month called “Cinema Verite” about the first reality show (which is up for debate since some consider “Candid Camera” the first reality show) called “An American Family”. It looks awesome.
By the way, can we talk about Marc Maron? I haven’t been finding his podcasts as enjoyable lately, although the Conan interview he posted today has been interesting. I’ve also been listening to a lot of back episodes of Comedy Death Ray lately so I’ve been enjoying listening to something a lot lighter and sillier.
I have probs with Marc Maron…but will listen if the guest is good enough. I think he comes into the interview a little confrontational and immovable (on topic and side of argument), and grasps at anything and only things that reinforce his point.
Seconded on the nice words for TV. I have some friends who work in reality TV, and I have lots of respect for them as storytellers (they all work as producers). So much of the “reality” TV that we watch today still has story arcs, and so there is a storytelling of a different kind going on here, maybe not the kind that is scripted out by a writer before hand, but storytelling just the same. And the amount of unwatchable and boring footage that gets sifted through just to create an engaging 15-minute moment on one of these TV shows is more work than some people imagine.
I have such respect for editors and producers in reality TV. I’ve never worked on anything professionally, but I worked on a couple of documentaries in school and it is HARD. Could you imagine working on “Jersey Shore” and having to sit through every single screaming match between Ronnie and Sammi? Those guys deserve a medal.
No. They deserve to get a new job.
So, to sum up Gabe’s thoughts on reality and non-reality (for your entertainment only? LOL) tv:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkgRignlDSYNjC7RPFMhvIwQwgfadM4dyJNbdp54TBkHwzFW2P&t=1
and
*hangs head in shame*
Sorry, I don’t know how to work my Commodore 64, apparently.
I think Marc Maron’s ultimate point was less blaming Joe Rogen for reality TV and the degradation of society and more trying to figure out how Rogen justifies his time spent on that show in light of his current standup persona, which is that of a self-styled heir to Bill Hicks.
…in the alternate reality where Bill Hicks kept going on about his balls and bowel movements. EDGY!
I said “self-styled heir to Bill Hicks.” I didn’t say the world bestowed that honor upon Joe Rogen. Because it sure as hell did not bestow that honor upon him.
Good points, Gabe. Counter point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8jeuYMHX9Y&feature=player_embedded
The thing that bugs me about the whole “Reality TV is the worst thing to happen to society since polio” arguments is that people fail to realize reality shows flourish because people watch the SHIT out of them. ALL of them, regardless of their place in the ‘hierarchy’ (lol). Like, all the time.
If a genre of entertainment wasn’t popular or profitable it wouldn’t keep getting made. Reality TV brings in tons of viewers for very little overhead. No duh it’s gonna to stick around. Degrading reality TV show hosts for taking a job a million other people would’ve taken if that guy hadn’t is silly, and it’s not going to improve people’s tastes (which is a problematic way to think anyway).
Reality TV is the High Fructose Corn Syrup of entertainment. People always say it’s only used because it’s cheaper, and that’s largely true, but if people have a problem with it they need to stop consuming. The argument that Reality TV is being forced upon the American public is ridiculous, because it implies that we couldn’t turn off our TVs. But we can, they all come with power buttons/knobs/switches.
That’s exactly my point (and I think it’s Gabe’s too, in a roundabout way). Reality TV’s NOT being forced on people – the people that tune in are actually *choosing* to do so, and most of them don’t have a problem with it as an entity.
And because it doesn’t cost a lot and people are into it, it’s gonna stick around until something more popular / more profitable / of better quality comes along and proves that it can do everything reality TV could, except better. Or it’ll just stick around until the fickle public decides it isn’t something they want to see any more (example – variety shows).
I am ashamed* to say I watch three reality shows on a regular basis. Survivor, The Real World and Jersey Shore. By the way, I’m going to be on the next season of the real world. I mean, I haven’t tried out or anything, but I will eventually and how could they not accept me?
*I’m not ashamed.
Klosterman had a really good essay in “Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs” about how reality tv actually is just like real life. He uses the example of how every character in season 1 of the real world is one of your friends….
Good read. I’d quote it or something but the book is all the way over there.
Also: the Reality TV Crapsplosion was maybe going to happen anyway due to they cost zero dollars to make compared to scripted shows but didn’t the RTVC happen basically because all the writers went on strike?
I don’t know what my point is! Blame the writers I guess!
(I’m still upset Frank Lloyd Wrong doesn’t like Mad About You!)
Flava of Love is my jam. That show was so surreal – I loved every minute of it.
Maybe I am taking this post too seriously, but here are my two cents:
I don’t think reality TV has the power to shape our values, because that gives something frivolous more power than it deserves. No, I don’t think TV is better because of reality TV being so terrible. It simply exists because people like tabloids.
Is this a campaign against Reality TV? Hardly, but to argue that I or anyone else somehow NEEDS to or SHOULD apologize to TV made for the purposes of Schadenfreude simply for not liking it or talking trash about it is silly. Some people simply are not entertained by game shows, contests, or other programs that display some hyper-dramatized version of reality.
Is it damaging? I don’t know. I don’t really think so, because it has an audience, and that audience enjoys it. That’s the point of TV or entertainment in general yes? I hardly think it should be abolished, but I am never going to enjoy it. I dislike the format and I don’t appreciate being lumped into a category simply for finding it stupid and distasteful.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Reality TV is alright with me because it brought this into my life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTYR4NdRgy8&feature=related
#whathappenedtoandre?
I took a Vicodin about an hour ago for my tonsils. I feel amazing, and I just love t.v. so much, be it reality or normal. Also Gabe’s comments (and Gabe in general) and Videogum and the monsters, you all make life taste like Take 5 bars and smell like Tom Ford (AN AMERICAN TREASURE). Marc Maron has so many emotions (WHICH ARE GENUINELY FELT, he’s not acting from a script. THE MAN KEEPS IT THE FUCK REAL!!!!!), but I’m so happy that he’s working through his insecurities and learning to RELAX. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ……[snore]….. AWAKEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
And can I say something else? (answer: probably!!!!! INTERNET BLOGS ARE WONDERFUL). Koko the gorilla was not the most artful speller, but she knew how to love kitties, and Her Ears were also furry. Also she loved treats (ask AOL). AND SHE TAUGHT US TO LIVE IN THE PRESENT!!!!!!! PHENOMENOS!!!! DASEIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, there’s a show coming to HBO (THE H!!!!!) that has Louis C.K., Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld, and Rick Jerk-face (I-MEAN-GERVAIS) sitting down talking about comedy. DOESN’T that sound like the THANKSGIVING BREAK OF FANTASTIC!!!!!! OR VERMONT’S BEN AND JERRY’S ICE CREAM (which is all I can swallow: THANKS TONSILS!!!) of THROAT NUMBING GREATNESS!!!!! So good!!! I mean what a wonderful, awesome, just fucking inspiring culture we live in. We’re immersed in such freedom, and talent, and love, that if you simply ignore the news (YUCK TRUTH AND DEATH AND LIBYA (I’m not serious here. We should all address the reality of human misery and help usher in a productive, transparent foreign policy that applauds diplomatic, non-violent solutions in an increasingly dangerous resource scare world. There are just echelons that make up our ethics and locally we simply cannot orient ourselves solely towards suffering. I say this with the full intention of becoming a social worker after college [ugh college-kids!!!!], so I am still more than happy to engage in such levels of pain. However, I need to enjoy life and parenthesize some suffering in order to face these obstacles and the difficult, often seemingly un-scaleable, social bricolage that surrounds and engulfs so many people. Otherwise I would feels INFINITELY MORE LIKE GARFIELD FEELS ON MONDAYS)) — you can float painlessly across the stars! P.S. “Louie” also returns in JUNE!!!!
I’m just so glad to be alive for this SHIT!!! GOLDEN AGE OF TELEVISION!!! and BOOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND VIDEOGUM!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I could just hug the whole everything and tell nothing but truths and fight crime!!!!! This is NOT sarcasm either (really!!). Life is pretty darn lovely and we should be smiling even in the hospital, even in the rainy, cold, fucking brutal weather in Providence, even in Detroit (THAT PLACE HAS TAKEN A HIT- DID YOU GUYS SEE THE CENSUS. FUCK!!!!)! We can at least aspire to fight the pain and absorb how fulfilling and affirming and HILARIOUS each second of every minute of every hour of life can be. I LOVE YOU VIDEOGUM!!!
and hey monsters, you guys just WORK THE SHIT OUT OF THIS DANCE FLOOR!!!! JUST WORK THE SHIT OUT OF IT!!!!!! I AIN’T GONNA PEE PEE MY PANTS TONIGHT OR EVER!!!!!!!!
On the subject of very good podcasts, does anyone else listen to the Pod F. Tompkast? I can tell you that if the physical laws of the universe and the mysterious inner workings of fate make it highly doubtful that you’ll be best friends with Paul F. Tompkins in the near future, this podcast is definitely the next best thing.
Did anyone mention “Survivor” yet? I didn’t see it mentioned up top, but that has been on for like 22 or so seasons and it is still pretty good compared to real housewives or worlds or whatever.
“I have the saddest boner right now.”
-Marc Maron
This reminds me of a reality TV show I had in the works: Moe Jillionaire.
Ha ha ha!! the photo of that dog is so funny…..
Slim Berry